Are Babies The Ultimate Friendship Ruiner?
All of our conversations about the gulf between parents and non-parents, and how to bridge it. (Episodes now public!)
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You’ve probably already read Allison P. Davis’ New York Magazine cover story, “Adorable Little Detonators.” “Our friendship survived bad dates, illness, marriage, fights,” opines Davis. “Why can’t it survive your baby?”
Unsurprisingly, as any sharply argued essay about something so personal to so many people — parents and childfree alike — Davis’ piece has sparked some very strong reactions, many of them negative. Some of the criticisms felt silly, like people who objected to Davis’ description of babies as “little assholes.” (Frankly, LOL.) Other critiques were more substantive, like Jessica Grose’s point that “the possibility for bruised egos on both sides may have more to do with the cultural pressures around idealized families…than a built-in stalemate between parents and non-parents.”
But mostly, all of the chatter made us think about the fact that we’ve been discussing this very issue on this very Substack since July 2021. One of us has (now two) children. The other is childfree and ambivalent about whether that will ever change. We like to think that our six podcasts on the motherhood divide provide a model for what healthy, empathetic dialogue between friends who care deeply about each other — even as they are going through divergent lived experiences — can look like.
So we decided to make all of those episodes public, and publish them all together here. We hope they make you laugh and think and text your friends.
Our first three episodes were recorded in the midst of the height of the Covid-19 pandemic, when we had been mostly isolated for more than a year, watching time collapse on itself. The first conversation we had is a winding primer on our feelings about parenthood and non-parenthood in that particular moment. In the second episode, we dive into our obsession with Nap Dresses and what — if anything — it says about what we need from our fashion, and what “mom fashion” is. Finally, we spoke to our friend Katelyn about the egg-freezing boom.
Audio Chat: Bridging The Motherhood Divide
Listen now (64 mins) | Moms and non-moms are often set in opposition, resentful of the freedoms or plaudits offered to women who made the other choice, rather than being encouraged to connect across different experiences and find shared purpose in improving the lives of women who have kids — and their children — and the lives of women who don’t.
Bridging the Motherhood Divide Pt. 2: Mom Fashion & The Nap Dress
Listen now (83 mins) | We both read Anne Helen Petersen’s Culture Study essay “Unpacking the Nap Dress." She zeroes in on the ways that these dresses appeal to millennial moms, in particular, and work to signal class, politics, and race. As big fans of the nap dress, we were intrigued, and it inspired a long and enthusiastic chat about dressing our changing bodies, reimagining a world without the capitalist rat race, and finding common ground through fashion.
Bridging The Motherhood Divide Pt. 3: The Egg-Freezing Boom
Listen now (82 mins) |Lots of women, predominantly in their 30s, decided there was no time like the Covid present to explore their options for fertility preservation. Our dear friend (and OG Here To Make Friends producer) Katelyn is one of these women. She joined us to discuss fertility preservation and the terror of regret.
After our egg freezing episode, we stepped back from parenthood/non-parenthood podcasts for almost two years. Maybe we both needed time to marinate, and we both needed to have new experiences. By the time we circled back to the topic, Claire was pregnant with her second child and Emma was watching a ton more of her friends become moms. Our May 2023 episode is raw and honest.
Uncomfortable Feelings About Motherhood
Listen now (61 mins) | Claire is pregnant with her second child. Emma is watching so many people around her experience the joys and pains of parenthood for the first time, and is still confused about how she feels about having those experiences herself. Consider this episode a casual check-in, one in which we try to be honest and raw about a topic that is so thorny for so many people.
Most recently, we tackled questions from our wonderful community of listeners — about finances, about certainty and uncertainty, about the stigma of being childfree, and yes, about friendship.
How Do You Decide To Have A Child... Or Not?
Listen now (81 mins) | In this episode, we focused on questions about deciding whether, when, and how to prepare for having kids; choosing not to be a parent; the experience of pregnancy and childbirth; and the logistics of having kids while working and living in the city. Many of these questions are profoundly personal, and really have no “right” or universal answer.
If I Have A Baby, Will I Lose Myself?
Listen now (102 mins) | The unanswerable questions are literally endless: Will you still feel like yourself after having a baby, and if not, for how long? What will your ambition look like? How will your friendships change, whether or not you have kids? If you never have children, what will your older years look like? If you want children and are single, how should you preserve your fertility? If you aren’t sure if you want to have kids, how do you broach those conversations while dating?
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I honestly can’t read all of the articles on this side and that about babies and whether they are screaming piles of party fouls or whatever. I scan through them looking for older parents, older kids. As always: very little representation. The articles all seem to focus on the 0-5 age range, mostly 0-3. Those years are the worst! They are incredibly demanding on parents and they happen when parents don’t know what the fuck they’re doing, are likely broke, and mostly obsessed with these new creatures. But beyond that: they are temporary. Children grow up, and become their own little beings. I personally have found that as my children get older, I return more and more to my core self, the me both with and without these small needy things attached to me.
I have 3 kids: a 21-year old bonus kid, 10-year old, and 4-year old. And yeah, there are parents who are really into sports ball or whatever, but most of us get decidedly more time - and money - once our kids are in public school. (Thank you universal TK, California!!) I’m not sitting around and talking about my 10-year old’s bowel movements or dragging friends to the park. We get tired of our new toys and I personally need need need my friends.
Thank you for having these conversations, and recognizing that a friendship post kids is no more static than before. I wish there were women having these conversations when I was in my 30’s. I wish there were women having conversations about it who are in their 40’s.